Re: [edk2-announce] [RFC] EMEA Meeting Days / Times Change

Re: [edk2-announce] [RFC] EMEA Meeting Days / Times Change

[Laszlo Ersek]

Hi Stephano,

On 05/14/19 20:21, Stephano Cetola wrote:
> It was mentioned that posting RFCs to the announce mailing list means
> folks will need the ability to post.
> 
> I agree that announcements can lead to conversation and so I've opened
> up the announce list to posting. New user moderation is active so I'll
> need to approve your first post.

I'm somewhat used to announce lists, and I'd like to propose an
alternative that has worked well on those lists.

Namely:

- keep the announce list locked down (very small number of posters allowed)
- when making an announcement, always CC the devel list as well,
- when consensus is reached, send *one* update (as the original poster)
in response to the original email, again to both lists.

As a result:

- the announce list will only contain the announcements, and (if
necessary) a consensus update. This will offer a very clean and
low-traffic overview to people browsing the announce list, and to those
that are subscribed only to the announce list

- the community can engage in normal discussion hitting "Reply All" at
all times. The discussion will occur on the devel list, and will be kept
out of the announce list. If you (the OP) partake in the discussion,
you'll have to take care to remove the announce list from the address
list of your emails, as the address list would not filter you out (and
you wouldn't want to clutter the announce list with in-flight discussion).

Only a suggestion of course.

Thanks
Laszlo

> On 5/14/2019 7:57 AM, Stephano Cetola wrote:
>> Some folks from the EMEA region have mentioned that the days and times
>> for their meetings are not ideal. We'd like to be sure that as many
>> people from this region can attend as possible. As such, I'll be
>> sending out an anonymous poll to determine the best day / time to hold
>> meetings. We will start with the *Design* meeting, as I have not been
>> getting a lot of designs from that region. :)
>>
>> To accommodate both North America and EMEA, we will restrict ourselves
>> to times after 14:00 GMT. The days are less restrictive, though Friday
>> is not an option, as that would begin to encroach on people's weekend.
>>
>> The first poll will help us select a good day (Mon - Thurs) and the
>> next poll will select a time (14:00 GMT - 17:00GMT). I will give each
>> poll 48 hours. After the design meeting we will repeat for bug triage,
>> and finally for the community meeting.
>>
>> It is vital that folks in this region respond to the poll, so if for
>> any reason we need to extend it please let me know.
>>
>> Please feel free to use this thread for comments and questions.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Stephano
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 

Re: [edk2-devel] [edk2-announce] [RFC] EMEA Meeting Days / Times Change

[Ni, Ray]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: devel@edk2.groups.io <devel@edk2.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laszlo
> Ersek
> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 5:29 PM
> To: Stephano Cetola <stephano.cetola@linux.intel.com>
> Cc: edk2-devel-groups-io <devel@edk2.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [edk2-devel] [edk2-announce] [RFC] EMEA Meeting Days /
> Times Change
> 
> Hi Stephano,
> 
> On 05/14/19 20:21, Stephano Cetola wrote:
> > It was mentioned that posting RFCs to the announce mailing list means
> > folks will need the ability to post.
> >
> > I agree that announcements can lead to conversation and so I've opened
> > up the announce list to posting. New user moderation is active so I'll
> > need to approve your first post.
> 
> I'm somewhat used to announce lists, and I'd like to propose an alternative
> that has worked well on those lists.
> 
> Namely:
> 
> - keep the announce list locked down (very small number of posters allowed)
> - when making an announcement, always CC the devel list as well,
> - when consensus is reached, send *one* update (as the original poster) in
> response to the original email, again to both lists.
> 
> As a result:
> 
> - the announce list will only contain the announcements, and (if
> necessary) a consensus update. This will offer a very clean and low-traffic
> overview to people browsing the announce list, and to those that are
> subscribed only to the announce list
> 
> - the community can engage in normal discussion hitting "Reply All" at all
> times. The discussion will occur on the devel list, and will be kept out of the
> announce list. If you (the OP) partake in the discussion, you'll have to take
> care to remove the announce list from the address list of your emails, as the
> address list would not filter you out (and you wouldn't want to clutter the
> announce list with in-flight discussion).
> 
> Only a suggestion of course.

Laszlo,
That's a good idea to remove email traffic!

> 
> Thanks
> Laszlo
> 
> > On 5/14/2019 7:57 AM, Stephano Cetola wrote:
> >> Some folks from the EMEA region have mentioned that the days and
> >> times for their meetings are not ideal. We'd like to be sure that as
> >> many people from this region can attend as possible. As such, I'll be
> >> sending out an anonymous poll to determine the best day / time to
> >> hold meetings. We will start with the *Design* meeting, as I have not
> >> been getting a lot of designs from that region. :)
> >>
> >> To accommodate both North America and EMEA, we will restrict
> >> ourselves to times after 14:00 GMT. The days are less restrictive,
> >> though Friday is not an option, as that would begin to encroach on
> people's weekend.
> >>
> >> The first poll will help us select a good day (Mon - Thurs) and the
> >> next poll will select a time (14:00 GMT - 17:00GMT). I will give each
> >> poll 48 hours. After the design meeting we will repeat for bug
> >> triage, and finally for the community meeting.
> >>
> >> It is vital that folks in this region respond to the poll, so if for
> >> any reason we need to extend it please let me know.
> >>
> >> Please feel free to use this thread for comments and questions.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Stephano
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 

Re: [edk2-announce] [RFC] EMEA Meeting Days / Times Change

[Stephano Cetola]

I actually feel like we may need more lists rather than continuing to 
keep devel as our main discussion forum. I appreciate your feedback and 
hadn't thought of that solution, however here are my thoughts:

On 5/15/2019 2:29 AM, Laszlo Ersek wrote:
> - keep the announce list locked down (very small number of posters allowed)

I want to encourage people from the community to give announcements if 
they feel it is pertinent to everyone. We have a rather mature, 
experienced group of engineers who I think can handle that 
responsibility. If I see this privilege being abused I can restrict 
posting to "approved posts", but I hope that isn't necessary. (new user 
moderation will catch "bots" and the like)

> - when making an announcement, always CC the devel list as well,
> - when consensus is reached, send *one* update (as the original poster)
> in response to the original email, again to both lists.
> 
> As a result:
> 
> - the announce list will only contain the announcements, and (if
> necessary) a consensus update. This will offer a very clean and
> low-traffic overview to people browsing the announce list, and to those
> that are subscribed only to the announce list
> 
> - the community can engage in normal discussion hitting "Reply All" at
> all times. The discussion will occur on the devel list, and will be kept
> out of the announce list. If you (the OP) partake in the discussion,
> you'll have to take care to remove the announce list from the address
> list of your emails, as the address list would not filter you out (and
> you wouldn't want to clutter the announce list with in-flight discussion).
>

I don't disagree that this would provide a way to comment on 
announcements while keeping the announcement list very clean. However, I 
feel like our devel list has become quite "messy" as a result of having 
only 1 list for many years, and I'd like to remedy that. I feel like 
your suggestion will only make the "mess" worse.

For those of us using a MUA to filter our list, devel works very well 
currently. However, if community members want to get better use out of 
Groups.io, we need to ensure our conversations are formatted well for a 
web interface. This would mean both refining our lists to a specific 
purpose as well as taking advantage of hashtags.

We discussed hashtags in our last community meeting:

https://www.tianocore.org/minutes/Community-2019-05.html

Your suggestion would indeed keep the "announce" list clean, however I 
fear that it would complicate the web flow quite a bit. Hopefully that 
came across as constructive. It's early and the coffee is still setting 
in :).

Cheers,
Stephano

Re: [edk2-announce] [RFC] EMEA Meeting Days / Times Change

[Laszlo Ersek]

On 05/20/19 16:42, stephano wrote:
> I actually feel like we may need more lists rather than continuing to
> keep devel as our main discussion forum. I appreciate your feedback and
> hadn't thought of that solution, however here are my thoughts:
> 
> On 5/15/2019 2:29 AM, Laszlo Ersek wrote:
>> - keep the announce list locked down (very small number of posters
>> allowed)
> 
> I want to encourage people from the community to give announcements if
> they feel it is pertinent to everyone. We have a rather mature,
> experienced group of engineers who I think can handle that
> responsibility. If I see this privilege being abused I can restrict
> posting to "approved posts", but I hope that isn't necessary. (new user
> moderation will catch "bots" and the like)

OK.

> 
>> - when making an announcement, always CC the devel list as well,
>> - when consensus is reached, send *one* update (as the original poster)
>> in response to the original email, again to both lists.
>>
>> As a result:
>>
>> - the announce list will only contain the announcements, and (if
>> necessary) a consensus update. This will offer a very clean and
>> low-traffic overview to people browsing the announce list, and to those
>> that are subscribed only to the announce list
>>
>> - the community can engage in normal discussion hitting "Reply All" at
>> all times. The discussion will occur on the devel list, and will be kept
>> out of the announce list. If you (the OP) partake in the discussion,
>> you'll have to take care to remove the announce list from the address
>> list of your emails, as the address list would not filter you out (and
>> you wouldn't want to clutter the announce list with in-flight
>> discussion).
>>
> 
> I don't disagree that this would provide a way to comment on
> announcements while keeping the announcement list very clean. However, I
> feel like our devel list has become quite "messy" as a result of having
> only 1 list for many years, and I'd like to remedy that. I feel like
> your suggestion will only make the "mess" worse.
> 
> For those of us using a MUA to filter our list, devel works very well
> currently. However, if community members want to get better use out of
> Groups.io, we need to ensure our conversations are formatted well for a
> web interface. This would mean both refining our lists to a specific
> purpose as well as taking advantage of hashtags.
> 
> We discussed hashtags in our last community meeting:
> 
> https://www.tianocore.org/minutes/Community-2019-05.html
> 
> Your suggestion would indeed keep the "announce" list clean, however I
> fear that it would complicate the web flow quite a bit. Hopefully that
> came across as constructive. It's early and the coffee is still setting
> in :).

As long as these tags are read/write from a traditional (and functional)
MUA + git-send-email setup, and don't force me to use the WebUI in any
way, I'm fine.

Thanks
Laszlo

Re: [edk2-announce] [RFC] EMEA Meeting Days / Times Change

[Stephano Cetola]

On 5/20/2019 8:03 AM, Laszlo Ersek wrote:>
> As long as these tags are read/write from a traditional (and functional)
> MUA + git-send-email setup, and don't force me to use the WebUI in any
> way, I'm fine.

Absolutely. I want to be sure that we don't disrupt productive 
contributions (and contributors) with a new fancy modern [buzzword] web UI.

I think this sentiment is shared by many contributors.

Cheers,
Stephano