From: "Ard Biesheuvel" <ardb@kernel.org>
To: "Chang, Abner (HPS SW/FW Technologist)" <abner.chang@hpe.com>
Cc: edk2-devel-groups-io <devel@edk2.groups.io>,
gaoliming <gaoliming@byosoft.com.cn>,
Ard Biesheuvel <ardb+tianocore@kernel.org>,
Leif Lindholm <leif@nuviainc.com>,
Sami Mujawar <sami.mujawar@arm.com>,
Jiewen Yao <jiewen.yao@intel.com>,
Jordan Justen <jordan.l.justen@intel.com>,
Gerd Hoffmann <kraxel@redhat.com>,
"Schaefer, Daniel" <daniel.schaefer@hpe.com>,
Sunil V L <sunilvl@ventanamicro.com>,
Zhiguang Liu <zhiguang.liu@intel.com>,
Michael D Kinney <michael.d.kinney@intel.com>
Subject: Re: [edk2-devel] [PATCH V3 00/12] Migrate ArmVirtPkg modules to OvmfPkg
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:57:46 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAMj1kXHFiFUszrc1CrGMYNYvwzZjnFBu59JsaRc3-KP_riMFSw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CS1PR8401MB1144C46CB8A37A4CDEA438B8FFB89@CS1PR8401MB1144.NAMPRD84.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
On Thu, 14 Oct 2021 at 12:14, Chang, Abner (HPS SW/FW Technologist)
<abner.chang@hpe.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Are, I am so sorry about that I just merged it two hours ago. Any process needed if we want to change the commit messages for adding your review tag?
>
Don't worry about it.
> ________________________________
> From: Ard Biesheuvel <ardb@kernel.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 5:51:56 PM
> To: edk2-devel-groups-io <devel@edk2.groups.io>; Chang, Abner (HPS SW/FW Technologist) <abner.chang@hpe.com>
> Cc: gaoliming <gaoliming@byosoft.com.cn>; Ard Biesheuvel <ardb+tianocore@kernel.org>; Leif Lindholm <leif@nuviainc.com>; Sami Mujawar <sami.mujawar@arm.com>; Jiewen Yao <jiewen.yao@intel.com>; Jordan Justen <jordan.l.justen@intel.com>; Gerd Hoffmann <kraxel@redhat.com>; Schaefer, Daniel <daniel.schaefer@hpe.com>; Sunil V L <sunilvl@ventanamicro.com>; Zhiguang Liu <zhiguang.liu@intel.com>; Michael D Kinney <michael.d.kinney@intel.com>
> Subject: Re: [edk2-devel] [PATCH V3 00/12] Migrate ArmVirtPkg modules to OvmfPkg
>
> On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 at 06:17, Abner Chang <abner.chang@hpe.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi package maintainers,
> >
> > The review process of this patch set is almost done and please allow me to merge it because the corresponding changes on edk2-platform is also required to merge.
> >
> >
> >
> > Ard and Leif, do I need the Reviewed-by or Acked-by from either of you? Or I can just proceed the merge process as Ard has no problem with this patch set?
> >
> >
>
> Hi Abner,
>
> Where needed
>
> Acked-by: Ard Biesheuvel <ardb@kernel.org>
>
> Feel free to merge it whenever convenient for you.
>
>
> >
> > From: gaoliming [mailto:gaoliming@byosoft.com.cn]
> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2021 9:22 AM
> > To: devel@edk2.groups.io; Chang, Abner (HPS SW/FW Technologist) <abner.chang@hpe.com>; ardb@kernel.org
> > Cc: 'Ard Biesheuvel' <ardb+tianocore@kernel.org>; 'Leif Lindholm' <leif@nuviainc.com>; 'Sami Mujawar' <sami.mujawar@arm.com>; 'Jiewen Yao' <jiewen.yao@intel.com>; 'Jordan Justen' <jordan.l.justen@intel.com>; 'Gerd Hoffmann' <kraxel@redhat.com>; Schaefer, Daniel <daniel.schaefer@hpe.com>; 'Sunil V L' <sunilvl@ventanamicro.com>; 'Zhiguang Liu' <zhiguang.liu@intel.com>; 'Michael D Kinney' <michael.d.kinney@intel.com>
> > Subject: 回复: [edk2-devel] [PATCH V3 00/12] Migrate ArmVirtPkg modules to OvmfPkg
> >
> >
> >
> > The change in MdePkg is good to me. Reviewed-by: Liming Gao <gaoliming@byosoft.com.cn>
> >
> >
> >
> > 发件人: devel@edk2.groups.io <devel@edk2.groups.io> 代表 Abner Chang
> > 发送时间: 2021年10月8日 11:39
> > 收件人: devel@edk2.groups.io; gaoliming@byosoft.com.cn; ardb@kernel.org
> > 抄送: 'Ard Biesheuvel' <ardb+tianocore@kernel.org>; 'Leif Lindholm' <leif@nuviainc.com>; 'Sami Mujawar' <sami.mujawar@arm.com>; 'Jiewen Yao' <jiewen.yao@intel.com>; 'Jordan Justen' <jordan.l.justen@intel.com>; 'Gerd Hoffmann' <kraxel@redhat.com>; Schaefer, Daniel <daniel.schaefer@hpe.com>; 'Sunil V L' <sunilvl@ventanamicro.com>; 'Zhiguang Liu' <zhiguang.liu@intel.com>; 'Michael D Kinney' <michael.d.kinney@intel.com>
> > 主题: Re: [edk2-devel] [PATCH V3 00/12] Migrate ArmVirtPkg modules to OvmfPkg
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks Liming, could you please also give the reviewed-by.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Ard, also need your reviewed-by for ArmPkg. Then this changes could be upstream and finished.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Abner
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: devel@edk2.groups.io [mailto:devel@edk2.groups.io] On Behalf Of gaoliming
> > Sent: Friday, October 8, 2021 11:14 AM
> > To: Chang, Abner (HPS SW/FW Technologist) <abner.chang@hpe.com>; 'edk2-devel-groups-io' <devel@edk2.groups.io>; ardb@kernel.org
> > Cc: 'Ard Biesheuvel' <ardb+tianocore@kernel.org>; 'Leif Lindholm' <leif@nuviainc.com>; 'Sami Mujawar' <sami.mujawar@arm.com>; 'Jiewen Yao' <jiewen.yao@intel.com>; 'Jordan Justen' <jordan.l.justen@intel.com>; 'Gerd Hoffmann' <kraxel@redhat.com>; Schaefer, Daniel <daniel.schaefer@hpe.com>; 'Sunil V L' <sunilvl@ventanamicro.com>; 'Zhiguang Liu' <zhiguang.liu@intel.com>; 'Michael D Kinney' <michael.d.kinney@intel.com>
> > Subject: 回复: [edk2-devel] [PATCH V3 00/12] Migrate ArmVirtPkg modules to OvmfPkg
> >
> >
> >
> > Ard and Abner:
> >
> > I am OK to add these three PCDs PcdPciMmio32Translation, PcdPciMmio64Translation, PcdPciIoTranslation to MdePkg.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Liming
> >
> > 发件人: Chang, Abner (HPS SW/FW Technologist) <abner.chang@hpe.com>
> > 发送时间: 2021年10月6日 17:27
> > 收件人: edk2-devel-groups-io <devel@edk2.groups.io>; ardb@kernel.org; Chang, Abner (HPS SW/FW Technologist) <abner.chang@hpe.com>
> > 抄送: Ard Biesheuvel <ardb+tianocore@kernel.org>; Leif Lindholm <leif@nuviainc.com>; Sami Mujawar <sami.mujawar@arm.com>; Jiewen Yao <jiewen.yao@intel.com>; Jordan Justen <jordan.l.justen@intel.com>; Gerd Hoffmann <kraxel@redhat.com>; Schaefer, Daniel <daniel.schaefer@hpe.com>; Sunil V L <sunilvl@ventanamicro.com>; Liming Gao <gaoliming@byosoft.com.cn>; Zhiguang Liu <zhiguang.liu@intel.com>; Michael D Kinney <michael.d.kinney@intel.com>
> > 主题: Re: [edk2-devel] [PATCH V3 00/12] Migrate ArmVirtPkg modules to OvmfPkg
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Ard,
> >
> > I realized there is a problem if we duplicate ArmPkg defined PCD to under OvmfPkg (e.g. PcdPciIoTranslate PCD) when I was duplicating this PCD to OvmfPkg.
> >
> > FdtPciProducerLib is relocated to OvmfPkg/Fdt and uses PcdPciIoTranslate PCD declared with OvmfPkg namespace. FdtPciProducerLib is also used by both ArmVirtPkg and RiscVVirtPkg.
> >
> > ArmVirtPkg uses ArmPciCpuIoDxe provided by ArmPkg however PcdPciIoTranslate used by ArmPciCpuIoDxe is declared with ArmPkg namespace.
> >
> > I think this results in the problem because PcdPciIoTranslate(s) that are referred by ArmPkg and ArmVirtPkg come from two different namespaces, right? Unless ArmPciCpuIoDxe uses the one declared in OvmfPkg, but I don't think we want to do this.
> >
> > Thought? Otherwise, we should still keep the original patch that relocates these PCDs under MdePkg.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Abner
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: devel@edk2.groups.io <devel@edk2.groups.io> on behalf of Abner Chang <abner.chang@hpe.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 5, 2021 11:00 PM
> > To: edk2-devel-groups-io <devel@edk2.groups.io>; ardb@kernel.org <ardb@kernel.org>
> > Cc: Ard Biesheuvel <ardb+tianocore@kernel.org>; Leif Lindholm <leif@nuviainc.com>; Sami Mujawar <sami.mujawar@arm.com>; Jiewen Yao <jiewen.yao@intel.com>; Jordan Justen <jordan.l.justen@intel.com>; Gerd Hoffmann <kraxel@redhat.com>; Schaefer, Daniel <daniel.schaefer@hpe.com>; Sunil V L <sunilvl@ventanamicro.com>; Liming Gao <gaoliming@byosoft.com.cn>; Zhiguang Liu <zhiguang.liu@intel.com>; Michael D Kinney <michael.d.kinney@intel.com>
> > Subject: Re: [edk2-devel] [PATCH V3 00/12] Migrate ArmVirtPkg modules to OvmfPkg
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Ard,
> >
> > This way reduces the impact of MdePkg. We can try it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Abner
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: devel@edk2.groups.io <devel@edk2.groups.io> on behalf of Ard Biesheuvel <ardb@kernel.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 5, 2021 5:30 PM
> > To: edk2-devel-groups-io <devel@edk2.groups.io>; Chang, Abner (HPS SW/FW Technologist) <abner.chang@hpe.com>
> > Cc: Ard Biesheuvel <ardb+tianocore@kernel.org>; Leif Lindholm <leif@nuviainc.com>; Sami Mujawar <sami.mujawar@arm.com>; Jiewen Yao <jiewen.yao@intel.com>; Jordan Justen <jordan.l.justen@intel.com>; Gerd Hoffmann <kraxel@redhat.com>; Schaefer, Daniel <daniel.schaefer@hpe.com>; Sunil V L <sunilvl@ventanamicro.com>; Liming Gao <gaoliming@byosoft.com.cn>; Zhiguang Liu <zhiguang.liu@intel.com>; Michael D Kinney <michael.d.kinney@intel.com>
> > Subject: Re: [edk2-devel] [PATCH V3 00/12] Migrate ArmVirtPkg modules to OvmfPkg
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 30 Sept 2021 at 03:43, Abner Chang <abner.chang@hpe.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > In V3: Address comments on V2.
> > > In V2: Remove HPE license on the files that just moved around or
> > > the changes in the file are just code removal.
> > >
> > > edk2 BZ #: 3665
> > > edk2 platform corresponding changes will be submitted after
> > > this pactch set is reviewed.
> > >
> > > This pacthes set is to migrate some modules from ArmVirtPkg
> > > to under OvmfPkg for the upcoming RiscVVirtPkg that can leverage
> > > those modules without the dependency with Arm*Pkg.
> > >
> > > The modules moved from ArmVirtPkg to OvmfPkg are,
> > > - FdtClientDxe
> > > - PciPcdProducerLib
> > > - HighMemDxe
> > > - QemuFwCfgLib
> > > - FdtPciHostBridgeLib
> > > - VirtioFdtDxe
> > >
> > > Below PCDs are moved to under MdePkg and leverage by RiscVVirtPkg.
> > > This change also remove the dependency on ArmPkg of OvmfPkg.
> > > - PcdPciIoTranslation
> > > - PcdPciIoTranslation
> > > - PcdPciMmio32(64)Translation
> > >
> > > Signed-off-by: Abner Chang <abner.chang@hpe.com>
> > > Cc: Ard Biesheuvel <ardb+tianocore@kernel.org>
> > > Cc: Leif Lindholm <leif@nuviainc.com>
> > > Cc: Sami Mujawar <sami.mujawar@arm.com>
> > > Cc: Jiewen Yao <jiewen.yao@intel.com>
> > > Cc: Jordan Justen <jordan.l.justen@intel.com>
> > > Cc: Gerd Hoffmann <kraxel@redhat.com>
> > > Cc: Daniel Schaefer <daniel.schaefer@hpe.com>
> > > Cc: Sunil V L <sunilvl@ventanamicro.com>
> > > Cc: Liming Gao <gaoliming@byosoft.com.cn>
> > > Cc: Zhiguang Liu <zhiguang.liu@intel.com>
> > > Cc: Michael D Kinney <michael.d.kinney@intel.com>
> > >
> > > Abner Chang (12):
> > > ArmVirtPkg/FdtClintDxe: Move FdtClientDxe to EmbeddedPkg
> > > MdePkg: Add PcdPciIoTranslation PCD
> > > ArmPkg: Use PcdPciIoTranslation PCD from MdePkg
> > > ArmVirtPkg/FdtPciPcdProducerLib: Relocate PciPcdProducerLib to OvmfPkg
> > > ArmVirtPkg/HighMemDxe: Relocate HighMemDxe to OvmfPkg
> > > OvmfPkg/HighMemDxe: Add RISC-V in the supported arch.
> > > ArmVirtPkg/QemuFwCfgLib: Relocate QemuFwCfgLib to OvmfPkg
> > > OvmfPkg/QemuFwCfgLibMMIO: Add RISC-V arch support
> > > MdePkg: Add PcdPciMmio32(64)Translation PCDs
> > > ArmVirtPkg/FdtPciHostBridgeLib: Relocate FdtPciHostBridgeLib to
> > > OvmfPkg/Fdt
> > > OvmfPkg/FdtPciHostBridgeLib: Add RISC-V in the supported arch.
> > > ArmVirtPkg/VirtioFdtDxe: Relocate VirtioFdtDxe to OvmfPkg/Fdt
> > >
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > These patches look ok to me, but I wonder if the MdePkg maintainers
> > are happy taking these PCD declaration changes. Translations for PCIe
> > are typically defined per host bridge, and I would rather move away
> > from using PCDs for this entirely than 'promote' them by carrying them
> > in MdePkg.
> >
> > As this issue is somewhat orthogonal to what Abner is trying to fix,
> > perhaps it is better to avoid MdePkg changes for now, and just
> > duplicate these PCDs into OvmfPkg. This is reasonable, given that we
> > know that QEMU only exposes a single host bridge.
> >
> > The one in ArmPkg can hopefully be removed and replaced with something
> > that is more appropriate.
> >
> >
> > > ArmPkg/ArmPkg.dec | 15 ++++++--------
> > > ArmVirtPkg/ArmVirtPkg.dec | 3 ---
> > > EmbeddedPkg/EmbeddedPkg.dec | 1 +
> > > MdePkg/MdePkg.dec | 12 +++++++++++
> > > ArmVirtPkg/ArmVirtCloudHv.dsc | 18 ++++++++---------
> > > ArmVirtPkg/ArmVirtKvmTool.dsc | 18 ++++++++---------
> > > ArmVirtPkg/ArmVirtQemu.dsc | 20 +++++++++----------
> > > ArmVirtPkg/ArmVirtQemuKernel.dsc | 20 +++++++++----------
> > > ArmVirtPkg/ArmVirtXen.dsc | 2 +-
> > > EmbeddedPkg/EmbeddedPkg.dsc | 1 +
> > > ArmVirtPkg/ArmVirtCloudHv.fdf | 6 +++---
> > > ArmVirtPkg/ArmVirtKvmTool.fdf | 6 +++---
> > > ArmVirtPkg/ArmVirtXen.fdf | 2 +-
> > > ArmVirtPkg/ArmVirtQemuFvMain.fdf.inc | 6 +++---
> > > .../ArmPciCpuIo2Dxe/ArmPciCpuIo2Dxe.inf | 2 +-
> > > .../ArmVirtGicArchLib/ArmVirtGicArchLib.inf | 1 +
> > > .../ArmVirtPL031FdtClientLib.inf | 1 +
> > > .../ArmVirtPsciResetSystemLib.inf | 1 +
> > > .../ArmVirtTimerFdtClientLib.inf | 1 +
> > > .../KvmtoolRtcFdtClientLib.inf | 1 +
> > > .../NorFlashKvmtoolLib/NorFlashKvmtoolLib.inf | 1 +
> > > .../NorFlashQemuLib/NorFlashQemuLib.inf | 1 +
> > > .../XenAcpiPlatformDxe/XenAcpiPlatformDxe.inf | 1 +
> > > ArmVirtPkg/XenioFdtDxe/XenioFdtDxe.inf | 1 +
> > > .../Drivers}/FdtClientDxe/FdtClientDxe.inf | 1 -
> > > .../FdtPciHostBridgeLib.inf | 11 +++++-----
> > > .../FdtPciPcdProducerLib.inf | 5 ++---
> > > .../Fdt}/HighMemDxe/HighMemDxe.inf | 7 ++++---
> > > .../Fdt}/VirtioFdtDxe/VirtioFdtDxe.inf | 2 +-
> > > .../Library/QemuFwCfgLib/QemuFwCfgLibMmio.inf | 6 +++---
> > > .../Include/Protocol/FdtClient.h | 0
> > > .../Drivers}/FdtClientDxe/FdtClientDxe.c | 0
> > > .../FdtPciHostBridgeLib/FdtPciHostBridgeLib.c | 0
> > > .../FdtPciPcdProducerLib.c | 0
> > > .../Fdt}/HighMemDxe/HighMemDxe.c | 3 ++-
> > > .../Fdt}/VirtioFdtDxe/VirtioFdtDxe.c | 0
> > > .../Library/QemuFwCfgLib/QemuFwCfgLibMmio.c | 7 ++++---
> > > Maintainers.txt | 6 ++++++
> > > 38 files changed, 106 insertions(+), 83 deletions(-)
> > > rename {ArmVirtPkg => EmbeddedPkg/Drivers}/FdtClientDxe/FdtClientDxe.inf (92%)
> > > rename {ArmVirtPkg/Library => OvmfPkg/Fdt}/FdtPciHostBridgeLib/FdtPciHostBridgeLib.inf (77%)
> > > rename {ArmVirtPkg/Library => OvmfPkg/Fdt}/FdtPciPcdProducerLib/FdtPciPcdProducerLib.inf (87%)
> > > rename {ArmVirtPkg => OvmfPkg/Fdt}/HighMemDxe/HighMemDxe.inf (83%)
> > > rename {ArmVirtPkg => OvmfPkg/Fdt}/VirtioFdtDxe/VirtioFdtDxe.inf (92%)
> > > rename ArmVirtPkg/Library/QemuFwCfgLib/QemuFwCfgLib.inf => OvmfPkg/Library/QemuFwCfgLib/QemuFwCfgLibMmio.inf (86%)
> > > rename {ArmVirtPkg => EmbeddedPkg}/Include/Protocol/FdtClient.h (100%)
> > > rename {ArmVirtPkg => EmbeddedPkg/Drivers}/FdtClientDxe/FdtClientDxe.c (100%)
> > > rename {ArmVirtPkg/Library => OvmfPkg/Fdt}/FdtPciHostBridgeLib/FdtPciHostBridgeLib.c (100%)
> > > rename {ArmVirtPkg/Library => OvmfPkg/Fdt}/FdtPciPcdProducerLib/FdtPciPcdProducerLib.c (100%)
> > > rename {ArmVirtPkg => OvmfPkg/Fdt}/HighMemDxe/HighMemDxe.c (95%)
> > > rename {ArmVirtPkg => OvmfPkg/Fdt}/VirtioFdtDxe/VirtioFdtDxe.c (100%)
> > > rename ArmVirtPkg/Library/QemuFwCfgLib/QemuFwCfgLib.c => OvmfPkg/Library/QemuFwCfgLib/QemuFwCfgLibMmio.c (93%)
> > >
> > > --
> > > 2.17.1
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-10-14 10:57 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 27+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-09-30 0:45 [PATCH V3 00/12] Migrate ArmVirtPkg modules to OvmfPkg Abner Chang
2021-09-30 0:45 ` [PATCH V3 01/12] ArmVirtPkg/FdtClintDxe: Move FdtClientDxe to EmbeddedPkg Abner Chang
2021-09-30 0:45 ` [PATCH V3 02/12] MdePkg: Add PcdPciIoTranslation PCD Abner Chang
2021-09-30 0:45 ` [PATCH V3 03/12] ArmPkg: Use PcdPciIoTranslation PCD from MdePkg Abner Chang
2021-09-30 0:45 ` [PATCH V3 04/12] ArmVirtPkg/FdtPciPcdProducerLib: Relocate PciPcdProducerLib to OvmfPkg Abner Chang
2021-09-30 0:45 ` [PATCH V3 05/12] ArmVirtPkg/HighMemDxe: Relocate HighMemDxe " Abner Chang
2021-09-30 0:45 ` [PATCH V3 06/12] OvmfPkg/HighMemDxe: Add RISC-V in the supported arch Abner Chang
2021-09-30 0:45 ` [PATCH V3 07/12] ArmVirtPkg/QemuFwCfgLib: Relocate QemuFwCfgLib to OvmfPkg Abner Chang
2021-09-30 0:45 ` [PATCH V3 08/12] OvmfPkg/QemuFwCfgLibMMIO: Add RISC-V arch support Abner Chang
2021-09-30 0:45 ` [PATCH V3 09/12] MdePkg: Add PcdPciMmio32(64)Translation PCDs Abner Chang
2021-09-30 0:45 ` [PATCH V3 10/12] ArmVirtPkg/FdtPciHostBridgeLib: Relocate FdtPciHostBridgeLib to OvmfPkg/Fdt Abner Chang
2021-09-30 0:45 ` [PATCH V3 11/12] OvmfPkg/FdtPciHostBridgeLib: Add RISC-V in the supported arch Abner Chang
2021-09-30 0:45 ` [PATCH V3 12/12] ArmVirtPkg/VirtioFdtDxe: Relocate VirtioFdtDxe to OvmfPkg/Fdt Abner Chang
2021-09-30 2:39 ` [edk2-devel] [PATCH V3 00/12] Migrate ArmVirtPkg modules to OvmfPkg Yao, Jiewen
2021-09-30 7:12 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2021-10-03 8:11 ` Daniel Schaefer
2021-10-04 10:05 ` Sunil V L
2021-10-05 9:30 ` [edk2-devel] " Ard Biesheuvel
2021-10-05 15:00 ` Abner Chang
[not found] ` <16AB2A90260D3DD8.20282@groups.io>
2021-10-06 9:27 ` Abner Chang
2021-10-08 3:14 ` 回复: " gaoliming
2021-10-08 3:39 ` Abner Chang
2021-10-11 1:22 ` 回复: " gaoliming
2021-10-12 4:16 ` Abner Chang
2021-10-14 9:51 ` Ard Biesheuvel
2021-10-14 10:13 ` Abner Chang
2021-10-14 10:57 ` Ard Biesheuvel [this message]
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