From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mx.groups.io; dkim=missing; spf=pass (domain: redhat.com, ip: 209.132.183.28, mailfrom: lersek@redhat.com) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [209.132.183.28]) by groups.io with SMTP; Wed, 26 Jun 2019 07:48:42 -0700 Received: from smtp.corp.redhat.com (int-mx03.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E987A59473; Wed, 26 Jun 2019 14:48:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lacos-laptop-7.usersys.redhat.com (ovpn-117-47.ams2.redhat.com [10.36.117.47]) by smtp.corp.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D460960852; Wed, 26 Jun 2019 14:48:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [edk2-devel] [PATCH v3 0/4] OvmfPkg: CSM boot fixes To: David Woodhouse , devel@edk2.groups.io References: <15ABBC9A305FBCEC.16820@groups.io> <536d4b904ecc507b84eaefd8c34510e72e38ec67.camel@infradead.org> <3e5e44e2c2714ddf0aeb604023ae6ad07b789583.camel@infradead.org> From: "Laszlo Ersek" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 16:48:33 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3e5e44e2c2714ddf0aeb604023ae6ad07b789583.camel@infradead.org> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.79 on 10.5.11.13 X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.5.16 (mx1.redhat.com [10.5.110.39]); Wed, 26 Jun 2019 14:48:42 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 06/26/19 14:33, David Woodhouse wrote: > On Wed, 2019-06-26 at 14:18 +0200, Laszlo Ersek wrote: >> >> Yes, it can be turned off. It is a common hiccup for new subscribers >> (the groups.io default is broken). I think we meant to document it >> somewhere (outside of the mailing list archive), and I guess we may have >> even done so, but currently a non-list reference escapes me. >> >> Anyway, please see the attached messages -- and then please log in to >> your groups.io account, locate >> >> Account >> Preferences >> Email Preferences >> My Posts >> I always want copies of my own emails >> >> and *uncheck* it. > > Thanks. > >> Because, in reality, that checkbox stands for "munge my Message-IDs so >> that GMail doesn't de-duplicate my own emails when the list reflects >> them to me". But, two wrongs don't make a right :/ > > Wow, this is just completely brain-damaged on so many levels. So people > who do, and who don't, have that box checked will receive the same > message with *different* Message-Id: headers? > > If one of them replies, the In-Reply-To: threading header in their > reply will refer to a message that *doesn't* exist in the other > person's mailbox. This kind of explains why threading was so broken for > messages on the list, with some response getting 'lost' because they > were detached from the thread. This does not facilitate effective > communication. > > Did nobody at groups.io ever stop and think this through? Can it really > not be turned off for the whole list? Why on earth did we move the list > to somewhere that can't even get the *basics* right? We did evaluate groups.io quite carefully, before moving to it. I proposed a ~15 step plan for the evaluation, and after some tweaking, groups.io passed it. The eval plan targeted basic mailing list functionality, and in my judgement, groups.io has worked as a suitable replacement for the prior lists, ever since we moved. There were two (sets of) motives for migrating away from the previous (01.org-based) list, as I recall. One, list administration for the 01.org owners had been too much of a chore -- our traffic had been too high for 01.org proportions, spam was a constant problem, and moderation / whitelisting for non-subscribers could never be handled effectively. is a lot more flexible in that regard -- the list / subscriber / messages management that I get from groups.io is far better than I got from 01.org *in practice*, for example. Two, the community wanted a "groupware" solution, with calendars, a space for uploading/storing design documents (presentations, PDFs), actually working email attachments, and such. The community also requested WebUI-based thread filtering / message tagging, IIRC. <01.org> offered nothing of the sort; looks viable thus far. My personal requirement was that, with all the above features in place, groups.io should primarily continue working as a (drop-in replacement) mailing list. With some account tweaking, I think it functions well in that regard. Its web archive for the mailing list has a disastrous UI, admittedly, but that has been solved by feeding the traffic to other (independent) archives. is one, and I happen to run another at (this latter is plain mailman2). Mail-archive.com in particular offers message-id-based search, which is a hugely useful feature. Whenever I need to capture a message reference somewhere, I usually include two -- a msgid-based one, from mail-archive.com, and another, native to groups.io. > Should I offer to set one up @lists.infradead.org? looks like standard Mailman2. Mailman2 is good for development mailing lists, and its moderation features are quite good in my experience -- as long as the list owner makes those available to list moderators anyway (I'm looking at you, 01.org). However, mailman2 does not offer the "groupware" aspect. I think we should stick with groups.io for now -- it's not ideal as a *development* mailing list, but it looks like a suitable compromise, between multiple goals. There is some pain associated with it when someone subscribes and tweaks stuff initially, but then it's relatively painless. Thanks Laszlo